Bill Resnick talks with John Saul, a historian of South Africa and active contributor to The Socialist Register. They review some history of antiapartheid struggle in South Africa, and what did or did not happen when it was officially ended. John explains how South Africa's system of racial and formerly colonial domination known as apartheid, was transformed into a system of class domination. John staunchly defends the praiseworthiness of Nelson Mandela's role in ending racial dictatorship in South Africa, but points out that we cannot forget how it was that it ended on capitalist terms. He even goes so far to argue that Mandela and the African National Congress embraced these terms consciously because their real constituency were black business and otherwise monied interests.